ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Well now, it began with Martin Johnson’s resignation and what followed was a series of leaks which revealed a calamitous rugby world cup campaign with a dysfunctional governing body to say the least. The England rugby union team we are talking about of course and the former England captain, Will Carling, once described the RFU as 57 old farts, I’m sure he’ll thank me for reminding him, he joins me now from Hampshire. A very good morning to you Will, taking that comment on board and looking at the current administration or lack of administration, it seems not a lot has changed since twenty odd years ago when you were captaining the side.

WILL CARLING:
Well there has been a lot of change, we won a World Cup and on the playing side things have changed, the shape of the guys has changed, the fitness but off the field, sadly, the last six months, a year, it slid into some real problems which as an England supporter is very, very sad.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Talking about the administration there, give us a sense of the way out of this fog, a lean management and administrative structure that would deliver the best players in best heart for the major tournaments.

WILL CARLING:
Yes, I’m more of an optimist and I think if they appoint the right Chief Executive, if they appoint the right manager to the team and if some of the lessons learned, there are some non-executives coming on to the board of the RFU so if they actually sit and listen to them and these guys are actually given some power to advise on change and that change is implemented, a relationship is solidified and nurtured and also a relationship back with the players. If the RFU can get the players back on side and develop some trust between the two, I’m a great believer that there is a huge amount of talent in English rugby, we just haven’t seen it for a while.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Where did that trust go then? As you say, there is a lot of talent around there and hopes were fairly high for that World Cup, the trust between the management and the players, why did that disappear? Is some responsibility to lie with the players?

WILL CARLING:
Yes, absolutely, but trust between the players and the rugby union has been poor since my day and everybody forgets Martin Johnson’s side basically threatened to go on strike so they have had these issues for a long time and so the talk recently that the guys arguing with the rugby union just before the World Cup, it’s been an on-going sore and I think the rugby union even now realise that they have got to develop that relationship, they’ve got to earn some trust – that’s two way, the players have got to earn some trust as well and the players have got to earn back the trust of the fans which to me is almost the most important thing but to me, all these things can be done with the right people in the right places.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
You’ve said that before, the right people in the right places. Do you think everyone who was there at the top during this disastrous World Cup campaign, do you think they should all go? We know about Martin Johnson, what about Rob Andrew?

WILL CARLING:
I personally think whoever the Chief Executive who comes in very quickly will have a review of the personnel that are there and he will make a decision on Rob. For me there are two things with Rob, he runs a huge department but let’s be honest that department is a pyramid that focuses on producing the best England side. If that England side is not performing, he’s got to understand that he will be seen as responsible for that. It’s rather like a businessman saying you produce cars but everyone else is happy, the HR department is happy, research and development is great but the car is useless and no one is buying it, well you go and Rob has got to accept that the shop window is the England team, of his department. The other thing I think that someone has to make an assessment on the inside is if he has lost all the trust of the players and the playing side, it is very hard to come back from that.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Is there anything, as such a distinguished player yourself, is there anything – I don't know what the atmosphere was and what the rules were, the internal rules were in your day in terms of the high jinks and to be honest it was a bit more than high jinks wasn’t it, during the course of the campaign and other teams, other Six Nations teams didn’t do it. How do you get some of those players and say to them, look you’ve got to grow up, you’ve got to be a bit more responsible?

WILL CARLING:
Well we never did anything like that in my day, in fact we never drank I don't think! Do you know, I think some of it has been blown out of all proportion. I am always a huge defender, if players go and have a beer during a tournament, fine, they need to get out of hotels for their sanity and go to a bar. There is an extent of drinking and actually I heard that a lot of the other teams went out and let off some steam, unfortunately it didn’t receive the same coverage. There were certain instances I think with the players, they were naïve with the stories that they gave the press and allowed the press to write so to me it is about sitting down with players and just explaining to them again and creating an environment where the values need to be looked at, the honour of playing for England, for wearing that shirt. I do actually think the players realise that, accept that. Personally, the saddest bit for me listening to all the stuff coming out recently is that I don’t hear anywhere about a player’s leadership team. For me, what is fundamental in any team sport is you have, the leaders themselves have a leadership team where they are liaising with coaches, talking with coaches, talking about personal discipline, talking about the way they themselves are behaving and they should have that within England. There has been no talk of that and therefore that to me is a fundamental error on behalf of Rob, on behalf of Martin Johnson and his coaching team. They should have encouraged that, nurtured it and the players should have been taking on this responsibility so that they actually look after themselves.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay, Will, great to talk to you, thank you very much indeed. Will Carling there, former England captain, with his thoughts on the future of English rugby.