ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
The Cabinet Office Minister Francis Maude was listening to all that, we’ve heard it from Mary Bousted, we’ve heard it from Ed Balls today, a very good morning to you Mr Maude, so you have never been serious about the negotiations, you wanted confrontation all along.

FRANCIS MAUDE:
I just don’t recognise what Mary Bousted has just been describing. I think she has been talking about a completely different process from the one I’ve been engaged with and when she says at the end of it, we don’t take any responsibility for what’s happening, actually that is the one bit I did agree with, they haven’t taken responsibility. This is a very irresponsible set of strikes, people’s livelihoods are going to be damaged, children’s education is going to be damaged. Britain, at a very fragile time in its economy, is going to be dealt a serious blow if these strikes go ahead in the way that has been described.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Can you just confirm for us, if these strikes, and this Sunday, three days before the strikes, are still saying if, are there 11th hour serious negotiations, is the door still open or are the talks over?

FRANCIS MAUDE:
No, of course they are not over. These talks are going on, on an almost daily basis. We have got four separate pensions schemes which are being negotiated and there are discussions happening on those schemes, not all of them every day but certainly in one or other of them there will be talks going on pretty much every day. For example, I think we’re going to be meeting with the civil service unions on Tuesday, the day before the strike. Sadly, the leader of the biggest civil service union won’t be there because he doesn’t come to the negotiations so I get a touch irritated when I hear union leaders saying that the government has got to get serious about the negotiations.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Do you think they could still be called off?

FRANCIS MAUDE:
Yes, absolutely, every single one of those trade union leaders could say to their members, we want the strikes to be called off because the discussions are going ahead. They have got themselves into a really difficult position here, they’ve called a strike in an outburst of sort of over enthusiasm at the back of the TUC conference in September, they have painted themselves into a corner so of course in order to justify this completely actually indefensible strike, they have to make out that everything is terrible, that no progress has been made. They know perfectly well that only three weeks ago the government put on the table an improved offer which protects every member, public sector worker who is within ten years of retirement, no change in their retirement age despite life expectancy having increased dramatically in recent decade.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay, I wanted to ask you about that improved offer because your colleague in government, Danny Alexander, has said well things like that, they are removed from the table if the strike goes ahead. Is that right, and if you do start talking again then it is a blank sheet of paper, all bets are off?

FRANCIS MAUDE:
Well you say start talking again, we haven’t stopped talking. These conversations, these discussions have been going on continuously and they will continue to, both before next Wednesday and afterwards.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But it doesn’t help the climate of negotiation does it, when Danny Alexander is saying things like that? But this is the case, is it, that that offer is removed if this strike on Wednesday goes ahead?

FRANCIS MAUDE:
What we’ve said from the absolute outset when we put this new offer on the table, which is a generous offer, most people in the workforce in the private sector would give their eye teeth to have a pension scheme as good as what these will continue to be and we have said at the very outset that that offer is conditional on there being agreement and if there isn’t agreement, we have said there needs to be agreement on the main elements by the end of this year, and if there isn’t we absolutely reserve the right to take those elements off the table. We are committed to public sector workers continuing to have really good pensions, at the end of this if the offer is accepted then there will be for certainly people on middle and lower incomes, they will be able to retire on a pension which is at least as good as they expect at the moment, in many cases better. But people are living longer and so we need to expect people, except those nearest to retirement, within ten years of retirement, to work longer, that’s just a fact of life. That’s true right across the piece, all across the economy. The second point, just to make that, is that the cost to the taxpayer generally of public sector pensions has increased hugely in recent years. All of those extra costs have fallen to the taxpayer, not to the staff.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But as we know, the unions accept that and say we want what they say are substantial negotiations but what I want to …
FRANCIS MAUDE:
But those are happening.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
What I want to put to you though, will that offer be conditional on this strike not going ahead, take it or leave? You also have another big stick of course and the things you’ve been talking about in terms of changing the strike laws. Will you start on Thursday morning, if a strike goes ahead on Wednesday, I bet you are doing it already, looking at ways unions ballot their members and the majorities they need?

FRANCIS MAUDE:
We don’t want to go down that path, these strike laws have worked pretty well for quite a long period and I’ve always said, we’ve always said of course they are kept under review, all laws are kept under review. There has been a case made for changing the laws but that’s not the way we want to go, we don’t want to be fiddling around with the strike laws, we want actually to get on with these negotiations. That’s a bit of a distraction from what’s going on here, we need to make progress, we need the senior union leaders to get round the table in those scheme discussions and we need much more …

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But if the strike goes ahead as it looks it will, there are many particularly in your party saying look, we do have to look at the strike laws, where you get 40% for instance of members actually returning their ballot papers and then whatever majority they get within that, that’s not a majority of the entire union.

FRANCIS MAUDE:
Well actually some of the biggest unions didn’t even get 40%, the turnout in the bigger unions, UNISON was only just over a quarter …

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
So you are looking at that?

FRANCIS MAUDE:
Well there is a case being made. The CBI have made a powerful case for changing the law, others have made that case as well. The biggest unions had very low turnouts, between a quarter and a third of their members even chose to vote to take part in that ballot and I have made the point that if strikes are called on the basis of these very, very low turnouts then the case made by those who want to see a new threshold put in place, that case will be strengthened.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
What contingency plans are you making, particularly in terms of our borders? Is it true you have been looking at bringing in potentially people from the military?

FRANCIS MAUDE:
Well the UK Borders Agency is determined that we will have both secure borders and do everything we can to avoid disruption to travellers. It is very bad for Britain’s image if people travelling to Britain are subjected to inordinately long queues and inconvenience, that would be bad. So everything we can do to avoid that, we will do. There will be some disruption, it is impossible to avoid there being some disruption, the UK Borders Agency …

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Just to be specific about that, everything that can be done will be done, does that potentially include bringing in the Army at the borders?

FRANCIS MAUDE:
If that’s needed. It is not what we would prefer to do but if that’s needed then I’m told that the UK Borders Agency is looking at all the options.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Does it look great for Britain’s image then if you have got a soldier checking your passport?

FRANCIS MAUDE:
It does not look great for Britain’s image to have these strikes going ahead and that is a self-inflicted wound. Britain’s economy – we are going to hear this week about the state of Britain’s economy, we’re not immune from the effects of the eurozone crisis. Although our growth has been weak it is actually better than some of our competitors, comparable countries, but the last thing Britain needs is a self-inflicted wound, irresponsibly called by union leaders who are not taking part in these, not trying to …

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Sorry to interrupt you Mr Maude but just to get back to the issue of contingency plans, you have been looking at bringing the Army to guard the borders, what about those that volunteer say from within the civil service to take on roles that are not being covered, essential roles as you define them, that are not being covered, are they being paid extra to do that?

FRANCIS MAUDE:
No, they’re not, these would be volunteers. It is against the law to pay people extra in those circumstances but they would be operating as volunteers.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay and there we must end it. Mr Maude, thank you very much indeed, Francis Maude there, Cabinet Office Minister.