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DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
After months of failed negotiations, the largest public sector strike in nearly thirty years is expected to go ahead on Wednesday. Reports suggest that nine out of ten schools could be closed, thousands of NHS operations could be affected and many ports and airports could be facing gridlock. In a moment I’ll be speaking to the TUC’s general secretary, Brendan Barber and to Conservative deputy chairman, Michael Fallon. Just let me alert you though to our Twitter experts watching today, they are Vincent Moss, the Sunday Mirror’s political editor, Kevin Schofield, political correspondent at the Sun newspaper and Craig Woodhouse from the Evening Standard, they provide their reactions via Twitter. You can read on the side panels and you can follow as well on our website skynews.com/politics and of course we want you to join in using the hashtag #murnaghan. Let’s say a very good morning to Brendan Barber, Mr Barber just picking up on what we heard there, Ed Balls, the Shadow Chancellor, said earlier this morning that he has sympathy for you but is urging union leaders to continue talking even at this 11th hour and give some ground, that’s not going to happen is it?

BRENDAN BARBER:
We have been talking for many, many months and unfortunately we have reached this position where we have simply not been able to reach an agreement with the government. On some of the issues involved the government have been absolutely intransigent, not prepared to move their position at all and that makes it very, very difficult.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
What do you hope to achieve on Wednesday?

BRENDAN BARBER:
What I think we will achieve is we’ll demonstrate that millions of public service workers feel genuine anger and a genuine sense of injustice at the changes that the government are intending on forcing through and I think that will come across very strongly and I think there’ll be wider public support. People will recognise that this idea that some in the government has tried to put across, that the public sector has rather cossetted, gold-plated arrangements and the private sector, the poor private sector tax payers having to fund those arrangements, I don’t actually think that is the reaction from the wider public.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Well you talk about the wider public, I mean in terms of the support at the moment, it is there in parts but not on a mass and overwhelming basis. Do you think they will feel even more sympathetic to your cause if they have had to take a day off work to look after their child who can’t go to school, if they’ve missed a vital operation or if they or their friends and family have been travelling and they can’t get back into the country?

BRENDAN BARBER:
I don't think anybody in our ranks takes any pleasure in the thought of that disruption to other people’s lives that this action will cause but I do think it is fair that public sector workers can make their case powerfully and strongly, which is what will happen on Wednesday, and I hope that will really make the government think further and come back to the negotiating table with a genuine willingness to negotiate and try and find a solution.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
I know on the other side of this you are urging the government to think again about its growth strategy and it’s austerity programme, you want money put into a variety of projects, yet you are saying this £32 billion or so that goes into public sector pensions every year, it is unfunded, it goes from the tax payer, that that is sacrosanct and presumably therefore must grow over the years.

BRENDAN BARBER:
Well I don’t recognise that figure that you give of £30 billion plus going into pensions. Some of the public sector schemes are actually showing, if you like, a surplus, there is less going out than coming in. Look, pensions is a long-term business and we’re looking to secure reasonable arrangements for the long-term that, yes, are affordable and sustainable but what you can’t do is you can’t just rip up the promise, as the government at the moment are intending on doing. I remember when Fred Goodwin left his job and we were told by the government, oh there was nothing they could do because he had a contract. Well so be it and millions of public sector workers, they feel that they had a promise too and that shouldn’t be ripped.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Well personally you have got a pretty decent pension arrangement yourself haven’t you? Far better than millions and millions of those workers that you are supporting in these strikes.

BRENDAN BARBER:
Yes, I’ve got a good pension, I’ve worked at the TUC for 36 years and I’ve contributed during that time and the TUC has contributed and yes, I’ve got a good pension and I would like to see everybody have a decent pension.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay. Do you feel that the Labour party should be supporting you more fulsomely? As I quoted the Shadow Chancellor there at the start of our interview, would you like to see some shadow cabinet members out there on the streets on Wednesday saying yes, we really do support you, particularly those low paid public sector workers?

BRENDAN BARBER:
I think we have seen members of the shadow cabinet expressing real sympathy for the case that we’re making and expressing very strong criticism too of the government’s unwillingness to move and I of course welcome that but look, this isn’t a party political battle, this is an industrial dispute about the promise that people feel is being broken and the solution to that has to be found between ourselves and the government.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
You say it isn’t party political but some of the union leaders say it is, some of them say there is an ideological element here. We don’t like the hue of this government, we don’t like its direction and we’d like to change it.

BRENDAN BARBER:
Well I don’t say that. This is a dispute about decent pensions and the solution is to be found between ourselves and the government, it is not a party political battle in that sense at all.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay, let me bring in Michael Fallon, of the Funding Treasury Select Committee and of course Deputy Chair of the Conservative party as well. You’ve heard, you’re listening along with me to Brendan Barber, I mean this is collision course isn’t it, there’s no averting Wednesday that’s for sure.

MICHAEL FALLON:
Well it is still an unnecessary strike. Millions of union members didn’t vote for this strike, it is going to hurt patients, it’s going to inconvenience parents, it is going to damage the economy and I hope even at this very late hour the trade unions will think again, not least because negotiations are still going on, they haven’t finished.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Well negotiations are still going on but we have had Danny Alexander saying that if the strike does happen, the offer, the current offer will be taken off the table, more or less saying well that’s it, we’re not offering you anything more. There’s no budging from the government’s side is there?

MICHAEL FALLON:
Well there has been a very generous revised offer three weeks ago which exempts any trade union member from being caught up in the changes if they are within ten years of retirement, it increases the accrual rate – that’s what the unions have been asking for, that is a revised offer that has been put out there and we haven’t yet had a proper response from that so the negotiations are still going on so it is the wrong time to be striking.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay, let’s assume the strike goes ahead and it is pretty sure it will even at this 11th hour, talk to me about this half billion pound figure that some say you have plucked out of the air, in terms of damage to the economy, how did you come up with that?

MICHAEL FALLON:
Well that’s our assessment of the damage that’s going to be from things that don’t happen on Wednesday, the damage to businesses, the people that can’t get to work for example because they have to look after their children because their school is shut and all the rest of it and this is really exactly the wrong time to be holding back the economy. We are going to hear I think on Tuesday how we want to move the economy forward and then just a day later Brendan takes all his members out on strike, it’s not helpful.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay, can I just bring you back in, Brendan Barber, I mean is this the start of something more? You are not going to get what you want presumably after Wednesday, are we going to see more of it?

BRENDAN BARBER:
Well we’ll have to see, negotiations are able to continue, the government has said they are prepared to continue talking to us. I hope after they see the strength of feeling that will be demonstrated on Wednesday, I hope they will come back to the table with a willingness to move and to reach a genuine negotiated settlement.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Could there be a better offer? You are more or less saying there couldn’t be a better offer than the one that has already been made and then revised, there is presumably no other way in terms of the government’s thinking.

MICHAEL FALLON:
People are living longer, people are having public sector pensions and these pensions are getting more expensive and they have to be paid for, everybody has to ….

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But in terms of a specific deal, there is nothing more you can magic up there is there?

MICHAEL FALLON:
The government has made it clear they are going to continue to talk, they have listened, they came forward with a generous offer, there is plenty there to discuss but in the end these increased pensions have to be paid for because people are living longer. MPs pensions are going up by 3% contribution next April, we all have to do that and I think it is highly irresponsible for example of the Labour party to start saying they are on the strikers side. Everybody needs to be encouraging the trade unions, like Brendan, the leaders, to get round the table again and talk seriously to the government.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay, do you accept that fundamental point, Brendan Barber, that changes have to be made, that money has to be saved?

BRENDAN BARBER:
Nobody is denying that we have seen improved life expectancy and that’s good, that’s why in the agreement that we reached with the last government, explicit provision was made that if the costs are rising because of improved life expectancy there would need to be adjustments, higher contributions would potentially have to be paid under what was called a cap and share arrangement. Look, we’re not denying that potentially there are going to be increased costs and there have to be sensible arrangements to ensure the sustainability of schemes for the long term but the 3% increase in contributions that the government are seeking to force through, that’s not to do with long-term affordability or sustainability, that’s to contribute to the short-term deficit reduction targets of the next three or four years and you shouldn’t force through changes of that sort on short-term issues like the deficit and that just feels to public service workers like in effect a tax, an additional tax that they are being asked to pay to solve that short-term problem.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
We are running out of time, Michael Fallon has to come back on that, that the immediate increase is based on the deficit reduction strategy and not on the overall picture about longer life expectancy and the other things you have been talking about?

MICHAEL FALLON:
Most people in the private sector don’t have these pensions at all. If people are living longer the pensions are more expensive, they have to be paid for and therefore public sector workers themselves have to make some contribution to that extra cost but we are reducing the cost for the lowest paid who are actually cross-subsidising the highest paid trade unionists, we are reducing that particular cost and we are prepared to go on talking to the trade unions to make sure it is a reasonable deal that doesn’t penalise those at the bottom end and can be phased in as reasonably as possible. Now these talks have gone on for nearly a year now, it is time for the trade unions to stop striking, to get serious, to come back and talk to the government about the offer that has been put on the table.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
You say that but nevertheless you must fear further strike action after Wednesday.

MICHAEL FALLON:
Well strike action is extremely damaging, it doesn’t just hit the government, it hits people who are waiting for operations in hospitals, it hits parents who have to make alternative arrangements when their schools are closed, it is going to hold back the economy, it is extremely damaging to have these strikes especially while negotiations are still continuing and I think it is time that the trade union leaders started to be more reasonable about it.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
I must end it there, gentlemen thank you both very much indeed. Michael Fallon and Brendan Barber from the TUC.