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DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Now Ed Miliband, the Labour Leader, ends his first full year as leader on a bit of a low point. A difficult performance at Prime Minister’s Questions last week has left some members of the party talking openly about a succession unless he improves and that new opinion poll you’ll just have heard has Labour at 34%, well behind the Conservatives now on 40%. Well in a moment I’ll be speaking to the Shadow Health Secretary, Andy Burnham, about that and more. Also watching the discussion though are our Twitter experts, today they are Vincent Moss, political editor at the Sunday Mirror, Joe Murphy joins him from the Evening Standard and Mark Littlewood, is the Director General of the Institute of Economic Affairs. Now they are all providing their reactions via Twitter, you can read those on the side panels and you can follow as well on our website, skynews.com/politics, we want you to join in as well using the hashtag #murnaghan. Well let’s say a very good morning to Andy Burnham and Mr Burnham joins me from Warrington. Mr Burnham, do you feel a bit sorry for Ed Miliband at the moment, he just doesn’t seem to be cutting it?

ANDY BURNHAM:
No, I don’t, because I think Ed’s had a good year. We’ve got to be realistic about where we are, we are rebuilding an opposition after a difficult result, general election loss, only eighteen months ago and what’s happened this year? Well we’ve had five big tests, five by-elections, and we have scored five resounding victories so they are good foundations on which to build in 2012.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But you’ve got a flatlining economy, a Prime Minister who came back with a flea in his ear from a eurozone summit and you’ve got a six point deficit in the polls. It’s not great.

ANDY BURNHAM:
Well I look at the real votes in ballot boxes, Dermot, and only last Thursday we had a really good win in the Feltham and Heston by-election. I was out there and what I hear from people is they look at the Prime Minister, out of touch, arrogant, increasingly cocky and they compare him with Ed Miliband who is someone who is in touch with people, who understands their concerns and who is speaking for them and that will be the change that we see in politics going forward. I think people increasingly see a government that quite frankly doesn’t care for the pressure that they’re under, the stress they’re under and the Labour party is increasingly speaking for people facing those difficult times.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
It is precisely that kind of background that one wonders why Mr Miliband is not leading his party into a better position and okay, you don’t trust the numbers but what about the sentiments that these polls also look at and they have been saying for some time now that Labour is still not trusted on the economy, particularly Mr Miliband and Mr Balls, and in terms of leadership the Prime Minister beats him and in difficult economic times people want certainty and leadership.

ANDY BURNHAM:
I take issue there, Dermot, with some of what you say, because over the course of this year Ed Miliband and Ed Balls have really put the government’s economic strategy under severe pressure and increasingly people are saying that Labour has called it right, that the government did go too far and too fast and that by doing that has damaged confidence and damaged the economy. Now that is leadership, that is saying what many people weren’t saying a year ago but Labour has said that and increasingly we are being proved right. Now you point to polls, the polls go up, the polls go down and one of the polls has us ahead today. That’s what I say, let’s look at those five difficult by-elections that Labour has faced this year, a year of by-elections and in each case we’ve come through and we’ve come through with a really good solid vote and in each case I think the government has struggled actually to get its message over and to convince people that it understands the difficulties they are facing right now.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But does Mr Miliband really provide the leadership that the party needs? One thinks back to Prime Minister’s Questions there, I mentioned it in the introduction, the last one of 2011, the unemployment figures had just come out showing it’s still going up, as I say the euro veto, the flea in the Prime Minister’s ear yet all the commentators seemed to judge it that Mr Miliband came out of it worse. I mean you must sit there on the benches and think, ouch.

ANDY BURNHAM:
You used the word leadership, Dermot, so let me just focus on that word, leadership. It was Ed Miliband this summer, the first politician for many a decade to have the courage to stand up and say what was happening in the media, particularly in the Murdoch empire, was wrong. He led that debate and we had a Prime Minister quite frankly trailing in his wake struggling to catch up. I saw it with my own eyes during the Labour leadership contest, Ed had the courage to say what needed to be said, that Labour had for too long giving out a message that the gap in society didn’t matter, as long as we brought up people at the bottom that that was fine. Well Ed said the gap does matter, the gap between rich and poor, the opportunity gap between kids in an area like mine and those in better off areas. Those matter and he won the Labour leadership because he did show courage and leadership and that’s what he will continue to do as the leader of our party.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay, let’s move on because I know you are keen to talk about your brief, about the health brief of course and the Bill that has been looked at in the Lords. We are getting the Lord’s report on Monday which you have high hopes might throw something your way in terms of your feeling that too much power, amongst other things, will be going to quangos within that Bill.

ANDY BURNHAM:
Yes, I mean the Bill, Dermot, is limping through parliament, the government is convincing nobody. I spent the last few weeks out shadowing NHS staff at all levels and I am yet to meet anybody who has a good word to say about this Bill or indeed about the Health Secretary. I am sorry to say this but I think that 2012 is going to be terrible year for the NHS because the government has created the conditions for the perfect storm in the NHS. It has made the mistake of combining the financial challenge with the biggest ever reorganisation and it is the combination of those two terrible forces, I’m afraid to say, that is going to engulf the NHS but the government can change course. Time is running out for the NHS but it is not too late and I am working with the health professions on an alternative stability plan for the NHS, saying to all of those people it’s not too late to drop this Bill and work to bring immediate stability to the NHS.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Let me compare and contrast though, I mean the certainty you seem to have on the NHS and the way things should go there with other issues, and it touches on I suppose what we have been discussing about the leadership and people’s inability I suppose to full grasp what conversation Labour wants to have with them. I think about things like the European veto, we still don’t know whether Mr Miliband, in those circumstances, would have signed up or walked out of that room and what about those public sector strikes? We still didn’t get it clear whether you supported them or not, presumably there will be more of them in the New Year – we hope not but we still don’t know where Labour stands on so many major issues.

ANDY BURNHAM:
Well I just don’t agree about that at all. I have just given you a very, very clear position on the National Health Service …

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
I accept that.

ANDY BURNHAM:
The government said there would be no top down reorganisation and that’s why we are saying quite clearly that the government should drop its plans and in fact Labour’s record on the NHS I believe shows that we have the right policies in that area. You mentioned more broadly other areas of policy, well it was Ed Miliband on the day of the industrial action that spoke up for ordinary people, who said it is just not right when people are facing pay freezes, the threat of redundancy, the cost of utilities going up, it’s just not right to say to those people yes, and now you have got to pay an extra 3% on your wage packet for your pension. I mean that’s just basically wrong and Ed spoke up for people in that, who have been put in that really unfair position by this government so Labour is finding its voice in opposition, Dermot, we are rebuilding. We have got to be realistic about where we are, think back to the Tories in 1998, ’99 or Labour in 1980, I think we are a lot further forward than those two historical examples and Labour is coming back strong.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay, coming back strong but is there a timescale for Mr Miliband? It was said when he was elected, okay, we’ll give him a year, has he done enough in the fifteen, sixteen months that he’s had?
 

ANDY BURNHAM:
As I said, he has put down incredibly strong foundations this year and we are ready to move forward next year. I can remember when David Cameron became leader of the Conservative party, the troubles he had over grammar schools and other issues and people were often raising the same questions. It’s a hard job but Ed is doing a really good job of rebuilding Labour in opposition and in bringing us back to a position where we are ready for government and I just think that people are looking at this government and they are increasingly thinking that they are completely and hopelessly out of touch with the reality of people’s lives and they are now looking to Labour to say come on, let’s see your new policies, let’s see what you’ve got to say and if I was to say one comment, I think that Labour in the new year needs to bring forward some inspiring new policies. I have talked a lot about the care crisis in this country and the proposal for a National Care Service, I think that’s the kind of idea that Labour now needs to bring forward, to say look, we’re saying something new, we’re saying something different, we’re saying things that are relevant to the challenges of today and that’s what ultimately will get Labour the ear of the country. It’s not necessarily about personalities and polls and all of that, it’s what are we saying about the future of this country and that’s the challenge for Labour in 2012.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Ah, we await them with interest. Andy Burnham, thank you very much indeed, Shadow Health Secretary.

ANDY BURNHAM:
You are very welcome.