DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

In a moment I’m going to be speaking to the Europe Minister, David Lidington, he’s just returned from those talks in Brussels but first let me tell you about our Twitter experts watching the discussions today. They are Vincent Moss, Sunday Mirror Political Editor, Kevin Schofield the Political Correspondent at the Sun newspaper and Paul Waugh, Editor of Politics Home. They provide their reactions via Twitter, you can then read those on the side panels if you’re watching in HD, you can follow on our website as well, skynews.com/politics and of course join in, use the hashtag #murnaghan. Well a very good morning to Mr Lidington, hot foot from Brussels, you travelled back I know with the Chancellor yesterday and from my discussion there with Ed Conway and from what you’ve seen there, these are incredibly fraught and difficult and the fact that we are talking about the summit on Wednesday potentially being delayed tells us that.
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Yes, there are clearly some very difficult, very complicated issues that they’ve got to get right. What was encouraging is that they did make progress, as Ed Conway said, yesterday as regards to bank recapitalisation and there is I think a real sense of urgency now when you talk to the eurozone ministers, whether my colleagues as Europe Ministers or the Finance Ministers there, that they really have got to come to a comprehensive deal and get to it quickly.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Are Britain regarded though as peripheral in all this? A mighty economy of course in European terms but not in the euro and it is clearly the French and the Germans driving this, have we got a backseat in all of this?
 
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
A backseat is putting it I think the wrong way but we’re not the people who are directly affected, we’re not in the eurozone but I know that leaders in France and Germany value the fact that David Cameron and other British ministers have been talking to them a lot in private, suggesting ideas to them, telling them very clearly that it’s in Britain’s interest that they are able to sort this out, to restore economic stability to the eurozone, that a collapse in the eurozone or prolonged recession is really bad news for jobs and growth in the UK so we want to ….
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But if they come back and say you’re not really prepared to put any money into this so you stay quiet there while us big boys sort it all out?
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
That’s not the approach that they take and you don’t get carping, I think there’s been a genuine sense of relief that British ministers made it very clear in public that we want them to succeed in sorting the eurozone problems out. To use the Prime Minister’s phrase, we are all in this together and an economic downturn in the eurozone, that’s where 40% of British exports go, it would be seriously bad news for British jobs. 
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Do you not think he should be at this summit on Wednesday instead of heading off to Australia? That’s what Mr Miliband from the Labour party is arguing, if Europe is so important, if so much of our exports go there and there is a crisis in the eurozone, shouldn’t the Prime Minister be there as well as in Brussels today?
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Well ultimately it’s for the eurozone countries to decide whether they need to meet alone or with the ten countries in the EU that are not eurozone members in the room as well but don’t let anyone persuade you that our Prime Minister is out of the loop on this, he is on the phone to Chancellor Merkel, to President Sarkozy, to other eurozone leaders regularly, George Osborne is doing the same with Finance Ministers. We don’t have direct leverage, we’re not a member of the eurozone and we have no intention of joining the euro but the accept, everybody else accepts that we have a contribution to make in terms of our thinking.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But we all know, we’ve heard it often now, the prospect of a Greek default would be catastrophic for our economy, Europe’s economy, our economy, our banks. Should we not be doing more to try to prevent that?
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Well I think we are doing what it lies within our power to do which is making clear publicly and privately our support for the efforts at the eurozone is making and being clear to them about the urgent need for a comprehensive settlement that …
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But are you prepared to put any more money in? No.
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Well no, we have taken responsibility for the vast levels of debt in the United Kingdom that we inherited from our predecessors, it’s for the eurozone countries to sort out the levels of debt that they have in the eurozone and I think that’s a perfectly fair way to apportion responsibilities.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
If though this process we describe here, Britain’s sage advice but no more money being put up, if the upshot of all that’s going on in the eurozone is a closer, certainly a closer fiscal union, that then makes Britain even more peripheral does it not? You have there the eurozone countries getting closer and closer and tighter and tighter and Britain more and more marginalised.
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
I think it is very important that if the eurozone countries, as I expect they will do, decide that having got to grips – and I hope they will – with the present crisis, they then have to move towards greater fiscal and economic integration, that’s where economic logic takes them. It will be very important to ensure that we have ways which protect the position of the ten non-euro members in the EU which in particular protect the integrity of the European single market and ensure that those things that need to be debated and decided at the level of 27 continue to do so.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
So this is a two-speed Europe, something which …
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
It’s a variable geometry here. We already have examples of that, you have ten countries not in the euro, you have countries that are outside of the Schengen Agreement on freedom from immigration checks, you’ve got countries with different arrangements on European justice and home affairs measures and I think that is a grown up way to come to terms with the fact that we are dealing with 27, with Croatia soon 28, very diverse European countries that have come together in a common institution but which have different economies, different political traditions so we need to accept greater diversity in our core …
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But the truth is, is it not Minister, that a lot of this is to do with the internal dynamics of the Conservative party and people like you were never great supporters of the European Union.  We know that your hands are tied by what’s going on on the backbenches, you couldn’t sit there and say well you know what, we understand how crucial Greece is and it’s worth us putting ten, twenty, thirty billion in as guarantees. We may not have to spend it but you couldn’t even say that because of the Conservative back benches and the debate that’s taking place tomorrow.
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Well I can tell you that there is absolutely no suggestion from anywhere in the government that the United Kingdom should be going in with ten, twenty, thirty billion pounds or euro to help bail out Greece. We have a responsibility to the European and international partners of ours to sort out British debt because if we don’t get the British economy right, that is bad for growth and jobs in Europe and in the wider global marketplace so those are our responsibilities, for the eurozone to take responsibility for their own currency and the debts that they have in the eurozone.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But the upshot is, as our discussion shows, is there is going to be a huge reorganisation, an on-going reorganisation of the European Union, it’s right therefore is it not that parliament debates this issue partly tomorrow?
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Parliament is going to debate that. I think the actual motion that we’ve got is the wrong one to have, I think that our future is in the European Union but with a European Union that has fewer centralising powers than it does at the moment and I think the idea that you should have a referendum on a rather abstract idea of renegotiating is a mistake and …
 
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But you have always talked about repatriating powers.
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Yes, as a party we have and we campaigned on that in the last general election in our manifesto and the coalition is committed to a re-examination of the current balance of powers and competencies between the European Union and nation states and we welcome thinking from Members of Parliament, outside think tanks, about that work of re-examining the balance of competencies but ….
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
In terms of the referendum …
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Yes, I want to come to that.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
… you’re swimming against public opinion. Polls today are telling us two thirds of the British public want a referendum on this issue, a lot of people on your back benches want a referendum on this issue yet you the leadership are ordering them to vote against it. Why not let them have a free vote at least?
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Because what that notion does, seeks to do, is to make a specific commitment with Parliament telling the government that they want a Bill introduced to commit the government to hold a referendum on certain things. That goes way beyond what was in the Conservative manifesto in 2010, let alone the Coalition Agreement. I support, strongly support, the idea that there should be a referendum of the British people before this or any future government can transfer additional powers to the European Union from Westminster, that’s why we took through a Bill last year, now the European Union Act, which makes it obligatory for any future British government to hold a referendum before any such transfer of powers can take place. The time to have a referendum is when there is a package on the table at the end of negotiations, you take it through parliament, you then go to the people and say look, do you accept this or don’t you? Have it on something that is concrete and a known quantity rather than on some abstract…
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
What you are saying is, it’s rather paternalistic isn’t it, is we know better than you. This debate is coming about due to an online petition, that’s democracy, modern democracy in action. Polls tell us, as I say, that two thirds of the British public want a referendum on this issue and you’re saying, oh no, no, no, we know best, this is not the time.
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Polls also tell us that you ask the British public what issues they think are most important to themselves and their families and the country, they will put jobs, economic growth, levels of public debt, crime, education, migration at the top of the list. Europe comes a long way down.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
So the point is, if you’re sure about the validity and soundness of your argument, why not let your MPs have a free vote on it? Let them go with their conscience.
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
Because that …
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Because you might lose.
 
DAVID LIDINGTON:
No, it’s wrong to take parliament as some sort of funny debating society where people let off steam but it has no real effect. If the notion were passed, whether by a small or a large margin, if that were to happen that wouldn’t be the end of it. We would then have people saying, with some justification, why isn’t the government acting upon this? Why isn’t the government bringing in a referendum? Now I think the time for a referendum is if and when there is a proposal for treaty change and we have the outcome of a negotiation where you can put it to the people, you can explain all the details and say do you accept it or don’t you accept it?
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Well Mr Lidington, thank you very much indeed. David Lidington there, the Europe Minister.