DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Let’s stay with that issue which has dogged Conservative leaders for decades, well now it appears to be David Cameron’s turn. The Prime Minister is facing a rebellion tomorrow with as many as sixty back benchers, even more perhaps, look likely to vote in favour of a referendum on Europe. Joining me is Liberal Democrat Deputy Leader, Simon Hughes; David Cameron’s former press officer and now Conservative MP, George Eustace and former Conservative party leader of course, Lord Howard. A very good morning to you all gentlemen, if I can start with you Simon Hughes, of course a referendum on Europe is something the Lib Dems promised in their election manifesto.
 
SIMON HUGHES:
We did but we didn’t win the election, we negotiated a Coalition Agreement, the Coalition Agreement is very clear …
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Which of course no one voted for.
 
SIMON HUGHES:
No, but that’s what happens when no party has a majority and you have to come to an agreement and the deal is if there was to be any major transfer of powers then there would be a referendum, so it’s a referendum conditional on and triggered by that. We have just passed legislation in this parliament, gone through both Houses, that will agree that so there will be a referendum if there is a transfer of powers, there is no proposed transfer of powers at the moment. Now is absolutely not the time to have a referendum.
 
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But take us back to the end of 2009/10, whenever you were putting together that Lib Dem manifesto on having a referendum, the thought being, given how pro-Europe you all are, that any referendum would seal the deal once and for all. The mood has changed in Britain since hasn’t it?
 
SIMON HUGHES:
Well it may have changed and that would only be tested if we had the vote and the last vote was in the 70s and it was after we joined the European Union. Now there should be at some stage the opportunity to do what you say to confirm our view but there are two obvious reasons why now is not the right time apart from the agreement in terms of the two coalition partners. The first is that we have just seen in that clip that David Cameron, the Prime Minister, is trying to help the eurozone countries sort out the most difficult economic crisis that European finance has had, dedication on European issues ought to be on the UK being supportive of that. Secondly, all our constituents, those of us who are MPs, are focused on entirely other issues. They want the economy to get back on track, they want jobs to be created, they want everybody to dedicate …
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
To vote to have a referendum doesn’t mean to say you hold the referendum this week, next week or next month, the proposal is that it’s in the next session.
 
SIMON HUGHES:
But it would become a complete distraction from what is the main issue – international terrorism, Libya, energy crisis round the world where actually working with our European partners works well, a European Union which at the m moment as it is we do half of our business with them, half of our imports come from there, half our exports go there, one in ten jobs are based in the European Union. For some Tories and some Labour people to put their head in their hands and back away from this idea that the most important issue in Britain now should be the economy and jobs and getting us back is completely a denial of the important ….
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
There’s that argument, which of course is a very powerful one but there is this other argument about the importance of democracy and how this motion got before the House of Commons, bubbling up from the grassroots, something Lib Dem politicians talk about an awful lot, you pride yourselves in listening to the grassroots. This has come through an online petition, it’s got on to the House of Commons agenda because people want it there and the polls show that people want to have it there but you’re saying that people shouldn’t have a vote because we’re the MPs and we know better.
 
SIMON HUGHES:
No, no, no, it is perfectly proper for the online petition system to work and bring issues to the Commons. We’ve had one on circuses, we’ve had one the other day on another issue and that’s fine and it’s on the agenda. We have a Back Bench Business Committee that has selected it and that’s good but when it comes to the decision, I’m clear and my colleagues are clear, the government is clear and the Labour leadership is clear that this is absolutely not the time to have a referendum. We need to concentrate on getting Europe sorted and be supportive, we need to concentrate on our own economy being sorted and we need to honour our coalition agreement which set down if and when there would be a referendum and it’s not now so Labour and Tory MPs who are supporting it are really …
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But you know what the Conservative back benchers, the Eurosceptics there are saying, well you Lib Dems are holding the Conservatives prisoner here on Europe.
 
SIMON HUGHES:
We negotiated an agreement, signed to by David Cameron and his colleagues, and it said that yes, if there was to be a transfer of powers from the UK to the European Union, that should have a referendum, that was agreed to, that’s very clear and it will stand for the five years of this parliament. There hasn’t been a transfer so far, I don’t anticipate there will be, there’s no mood for that. I share that view so let’s concentrate on making the best of our current position and getting our economy and Europe’s economy sorted out.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Okay, Simon Hughes, thank you very much for that, let’s get the views now of Lord Howard, listening there to Simon Hughes. I mean you would go along with an awful lot of that I suppose?
 
LORD HOWARD:
Quite a lot of it. You have to face the fact that we are in great financial and economic difficulties, people have lost their jobs, people are worried about losing their jobs and it would be an enormous distraction from the urgent task of focusing all the efforts of government on meeting the economic challenge, on growing economic recovery and in creating jobs, if the political class were to be diverted at this moment in time or in the near future to arguing whether we should have a referendum on our membership of the European Union. Now I have always been in favour of bringing back powers from Europe …
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
We know that! 
 
 
 
 
LORD HOWARD:
… of being able to decide more things for ourselves and so within the Conservative party at least this is really an argument about means and not about ends and I actually think that we are likely to have an opportunity perhaps before too long of dealing with some of the things which are causing such grave concerns.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Because eventually there is going to be a new Treaty out there and then we will have a referendum?
 
LORD HOWARD:
Partly because of that and partly because the economic weakness of Europe as a whole has been cruelly exposed by the current financial crisis, by current events and for Europe as a whole there is a pressing need to sweep away the burdens and the regulations and the red tape which are getting in the way of that economic recovery so I think we will have an opportunity and I want the government to make the most of that opportunity and Vince Cable, I read in yesterday’s paper, was complaining that other government departments are not being keen enough to sweep away red tape. Good on him, I agree. I hope he will also take on board the fact that a lot of these burdens and a lot of this red tape comes from the European Union and that we should look for opportunities to improve matters and to get Europe to see sense about the problems that some of its regulations are causing.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Well you have voiced many of the doubts that you have about the European Union which have been well voiced over the years and just on tomorrow’s vote, let’s have it crystal clear from you Lord Howard, you’re saying a lot of those who are thinking of voting for this referendum and voting against the government and the leadership are looking to you for leadership. They have listened to what you’ve said over the years but you’re saying to them pipe down, now is not the time?
 
LORD HOWARD:
I’m saying – I’d never say to them pipe down! – but I’m saying it would be a mistake. I think the government is right, I think that David Cameron is right, I think we have to focus all our energies and our efforts on economic recovery and on dealing with the things which are very important and even George’s very well meant amendment – and I have a great deal of time for George, I’m sure you’ll ask him about that, I don't think that’s the way either. George wants a White Paper which would set out all the things we want from a renegotiation, this is a dynamic situation it’s not a static one. What’s important today may not be important in two or three years’ time and there may be things that are important in two or three years’ time which we just haven’t thought about today.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But your approach of saying now is not the time, then assumes that there will be a time even if not much has changed in terms of relations within the EU, that there may be a time when perhaps we’re in safer economic waters when we could have this debate and we could have a referendum?
 
LORD HOWARD:
We might well. Two opportunities, I think there are two opportunities ahead of us. One is the now glaringly obvious pressing need for Europe as a whole to do something to create a much better economic performance for the European Union as a whole and that means looking again at the rules and regulations and red tape. The second is the quite likely need for a new Treaty for the countries in the eurozone who are having discussions at the moment and they may well need a new Treaty to do the things they want to do. That gives us an opportunity because we’d have to agree to it to say, well we will agree to that if you do the following things that we want done.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But isn’t a lot of it about coalition dynamics? As I said to Simon Hughes there, it’s about the Lib Dems holding the Conservative party to ransom, saying we’ll walk out if you go for a referendum.
 
LORD HOWARD:
Look, we obviously have a different view of what our relationship with the European Union should be than the Lib Dems do but I think reality may be beginning to intrude and if Vince Cable as Business Secretary, he must be painfully aware of the problems that the red tape and the regulations from Europe create, he must be aware of the need to do something about that so we may even be able to make common ground on those issues with our Liberal Democrat partners.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Well we look forward to that in the future, thank you very much indeed Lord Howard. I want to bring in George Eustace now, you felt there was a potential compromise in terms of what’s debated and voted on tomorrow in the House of Commons?
 
GEORGE EUSTACE:
Yes, my view is in terms of renegotiating our relationship with the EU there’s three steps. First of all you’ve got to have a plan and you’ve got to start the work on that now. Secondly, you need to have a renegotiation and then the referendum comes at the end and I think having a referendum before isn’t really the right way to do it so there are problems with this motion and I’ve tried to improve it. I think the reason the government has got a bit of a problem here with its back benches is there is just an impression and a feeling, rightly or wrongly, that basically the government just wants to put this in the deep freeze and not talk about the issue and at a time when we have got a recession looming again, some economists talking about perhaps ten years of low growth, we have got to think outside the box and be quite radical. Part of that has got to be about shaking up employment laws, social laws, freeing up our economy and if you can’t …
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
You are differing from what Lord Howard said, he was saying this is not a side issue, this is not an irrelevance because it just cuts straight in to all the issues economically that we’re facing.
 
GEORGE EUSTACE:
The European Union is actually one of the causes of economic stagnation and the burden of regulation that just comes year after year is one of the causes so I think this idea of oh, now is not the time to talk about it – we’ve got a crisis in the eurozone, problems with our economy, if now’s not the time to try and address the shortcomings of the EU when is the time? It is precisely because of this economic problem that we’ve got to tackle it right now.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
But this isn’t that kind of debate is it? Do you think it is too blunt talking about in or out, that is not the issue?
 
GEORGE EUSTACE:
I actually think what most people want is a renegotiation of our relationship with the European Union and the future belongs to those with a plan at times of crisis. The problem is if the Foreign Office aren’t even going to start thinking about the kind of policies we might take back and how we would do it, we’re never going to get anywhere, this idea that it’s all too difficult and we can’t do it. The amendment that I’ve put down is entirely consistent with the coalition agreement, the coalition agreement gives a clear undertaking to examine the competencies of the European Union. Now what does that actually mean if it doesn’t mean the Foreign Office doing some of this thinking? That’s all I am asking them to do, to start thinking about these things.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
How much anger do you think there is, tell us about it there on the back benches, feeling that the leadership here is being heavy handed and by whipping us they are not allowing this kind of open and free debate we should be having?
 
GEORGE EUSTACE:
Well I’ve tried to put down a motion that I think could unite both sides of the party, both the government and the back benches and I have to say at the moment I’m not having much luck in that I’m being attacked from both sides but that’s what sometimes happens when you try to put down a compromise but to those who say we shouldn’t water down this motion, we should stick with it as it is, what I would say is there’s no point just having some gallant charge of the light brigade which ultimately fails. If you want to make progress in this area you’ve got to get motions passed in parliament and that means you need to unite the Conservative party and not divide it. That’s why I am trying to put down this compromise but it needs movement on both sides and if the government is saying it basically just wants to duck this issue and avoid discussing the future of the European Union then …
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
These issues, not just for the Conservative party as you’ve described, I just want to bring Simon Hughes back in, I know you’ve been listening to that but just briefly on it Simon, these are issues for the country to debate, this is not about party politics, given the way that George Eustace has described.
 
 
 
 
SIMON HUGHES:
In the Labour and Conservative parties there are people on both sides and as George indicated, in the middle, of this debate. The question I think that we’ve all addressed, that you’ve forced us to address, is ‘is this an appropriate time?’ Those of us who are pro-Europeans and think our place is best within the European Union, not without changes and I absolutely accept what Michael Howard said earlier, there are always potential for changes for doing it better, for doing it in a more streamlined way, I’ve always said that, always argued for that but at the moment those are not the principle issues for Britain. The principle issues for Britain are to help our European colleagues to sort out the eurozone crisis otherwise we will be really adversely affected and to get our economy growing again so that my constituents and George’s constituents can start seeing more jobs, more employment and so on and I don't think spending a year, if the motion went through, of planning for a referendum in the next session when we know how excited a lot of the press and other people get, would be the right thing to do, it’s not the right time. 
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
Lord Howard, a lot of people listening to this will say hold on a minute, you’re saying now is not the time but you are saying the biggest existential threat to our economy and indeed the Americans are saying it as well, is coming from Europe so why is now not the time to debate Europe?
 
LORD HOWARD:
Because what you need to do in my opinion is address in a practical and pragmatic way those things which are causing the problems, the things, the red tape, the regulations. You can deal with that without an in or out debate. I don't think it is an in or out debate but I do think that action has to be taken to encourage economic recovery in this country and in the rest of Europe and you do that by making a really determined attempt to get rid of these regulations and the red tape which are causing business enormous difficulties.
 
DERMOT MURNAGHAN:
On that note I must end it. Gentlemen, thank you all very much indeed, George Eustace, Lord Howard and Simon Hughes there on that thorny and on-going issue of Europe.