Any quotes used must be attributed to Murnaghan, Sky News 

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

A year ago it was the unions which helped to secure victory for Ed Miliband in the Labour leadership contest but with polls now showing voter concern over their influence, the union’s influence on the party, Ed Miliband has been trying to loosen their grip, even opposing strike action.  Well we are joined now by the General Secretary of Unite, he is Len McCluskey of course.  A very good morning to you Mr McCluskey.  I’ve just been talking to Ed Miliband and he talks an awful lot about supporting ordinary working families, do you and your members see it like that when it comes to these huge issues that you are fighting against?

LEN McCLUSKEY:

Well my members are the ordinary working families that Ed is talking about.  Obviously there is a lot of talk at the moment about strikes and his position on strikes, my understanding is that  what he said back on 30th June and what he’s still saying is that he disagrees with strikes whilst negotiations are still continuing. Now that’s an understandable and perfectly legitimate position, it’s not one I share but it’s a perfectly legitimate position.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

But you disagree with strikes, you’d like not to have strikes, you’d like it resolved by negotiations?

LEN McCLUSKEY:

Of course we would.  No worker ever likes taking strike action, they only ever take strike action when there is a deep sense of injustice and nobody is listening and on this particular situation the government aren’t listening.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

But where does Mr Miliband stand on this, is that not the question in your mind?  So he agrees with you on that and he talks about negotiations, well the negotiations still seem to be stuck, they’re not leading anywhere.  If you do end up with co-ordinated strike action on November 30th, you’d like to see his support would you not, given that the vast majority of your members must vote for him?

LEN McCLUSKEY:

Absolutely.  If negotiations break down it will be interesting for you to pose the question then to Ed…

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

I just put it to him.

LEN McCLUSKEY:

If negotiations have finished, do you now support the strikes?  Of course I think what Ed has to do and certainly what we have to do is lay the blame for these strikes where they belong and that is squarely at the feet of the government who have been intransigent and who are locked into an ideological attack on ordinary decent men and women in the public sector. 

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Mr Miliband does lay it at the government’s door, they are dragging their feet, not negotiating wholeheartedly I suppose but ideological, you really believe this is an attacked from the ideological right?

LEN McCLUSKEY:

Oh there is absolutely no doubt about that.  The attack on our welfare system, the National Health Service, universal education – all of this is ideologically driven and what we have to do, we have to demonstrate the nature of that attack and also the fact that there is an alternative to it.  This slash and burn attack is simply an approach by the government who have seen an opportunity, they are using the current crisis to attack the very basis of the social architecture that has held us together for the past 65 years.  This is our heritage and we’ve got to be prepared to stand and fight for it so that we can pass it on to future generations.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

But in your analysis this is an ideologically motivated attack, is the response ideologically from the left?  Is there more to it than just fighting for jobs, for pensions, the bread and butter issues?  There is something in there with an agenda?

LEN McCLUSKEY:

I think that’s a great question, it really is.  The strikes of course are all about pensions and indeed if the government made some changes and reached an accommodation with the trade unions then there wouldn’t be a trade dispute but does that mean that there wouldn’t still be an issue with the government over their attacks?  There still would be in my mind and that’s why I’m urging a coalition of resistance with church organisations, community organisations, that’s why I’m saying besides the industrial response, industrial strike action on jobs and pensions and wages, there needs to be a much wider attack in terms of what the government are doing.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Would you like to bring the government down?  Would you like this government to fail?

LEN McCLUSKEY:

No, no.  No, no, I would not like to bring the government down, they have been elected by due process and what we’re trying to do is make certain that enough people react against it by all kinds of different means including civil disobedience, so that the government takes a step back and produces a Plan B rather than the route that they are currently going down.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

How far could civil disobedience go?  Within the bounds of the law?

LEN McCLUSKEY:

Oh of course within the bounds of the law, I mean obviously …

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

What kinds of things though?

LEN McCLUSKEY:

Well civil disobedience – I’ve been pulled up by the media over this question of civil disobedience, you’d swear I’d called for a nuclear attack on Westminster.  Civil disobedience is the oldest form of protest in our democracy, it can take all kinds of different formats.  There was a group of senior citizens in Bristol went backwards and forwards across a zebra crossing protesting against something and bringing people’s attention.  UK Uncut, that fantastic organisation of young people, actually sitting in and turning banks into crèches and going to those companies, those corporate giants who don’t pay any tax, all of that form of civil disobedience builds together a type of resistance that hopefully a government, if they are supposed to be a government of the people, will listen to and change tack.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

It sounds like you are trying to make the country ungovernable.  Are you talking to other union leaders, is this co-ordinated?  This is co-ordinated, this is going to be, we’ve heard from other union  leaders, the biggest level of strike action since 1926.

LEN McCLUSKEY:

Well certainly the strike action is being co-ordinated by the TUC and that’s so that all public service workers can move as one and it is the biggest mobilisation since 1926.  The wider issue that you asked, a very good question that you delved into is, and I’m speaking for myself about the concept of coalition of resistance and civil disobedience and bringing other groups into play.   Our church organisations are appalled at what’s happening, community organisations are appalled at what’s happening to our communities at the moment and we have a duty to stand up and be counted.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

But if the government doesn’t listen you would like it to fall, I mean you are here at the Labour conference, you are a Labour supporter, you’d like to see Labour in power.

LEN McCLUSKEY:

I’d like to see Labour in power at the next election but you know the history of the world tells us that if governments don’t listen to the people, then they do fall.  Look what’s happening in the Middle East at the moment, everybody is delighted with the fall of tyrannies and governments that don’t listen.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Do you see the government on a par with Colonel Gaddafi and Libya?

LEN McCLUSKEY:

No, of course I don’t, that’s being a little bit provocative.  I am saying that any government that doesn’t listen to its people, doesn’t listen to the growing anger and resentment, then be it on their own head.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Okay, Mr McCluskey, we must end it there.  Thank you very much indeed, Len McCluskey there.