Any quotes used must be attributed to Murnaghan, Sky News 

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

The government’s controversial Health Bill gets its second reading in the House of Lords this week and it is likely to face some tough opposition there.  Many changes were made to the original plans for English health services earlier this year but this has not proved enough for some Liberal Democrats and for Labour, who are now calling on the government to halt the Bill and find a wider consensus.  In a moment I’ll be speaking to the new Shadow Health Secretary, Andy Burnham, about that and more but just to let you know also watching the discussion are our Twitter experts today, they are Paul Waugh, Editor of Politics Home, Vincent Moss from the Sunday Mirror and Allister Heath, Editor of City AM, they provide their reactions on Twitter.  You can read them on the side panels if you are watching in HD and you can follow on our website as well, that is skynews.com/politics and you can join in using the hashtag #murnaghan.  Well then, to those health reforms and the Shadow Health Secretary, Andy Burnham, joins me now from Liverpool.  A very good morning to you, Mr Burnham, back on your old turf,  I know only three or four days back in that job.  Let me ask you about this offer, you have written to Andrew Lansley, the Health Secretary, offering a consensus based help from Labour on changing the National Health Service but not within this Bill, why can it not be reworked?

ANDY BURNHAM:

Well I’ve always said that the biggest challenge facing the NHS right now is the financial challenge and this huge top-down reorganisation is a dangerous distraction from that.  Now it is quite clear that the Health Secretary has failed to establish a consensus in the country behind his reforms and my message to him is please, stop digging in.  The more he digs in, the more he is putting our National Health Service in the danger zone so this is a genuine offer that I’m making to him, drop your Bill and we will work with you constructively to reform NHS commissioning.  That was the aim that was at the heart of the Bill, let’s just focus on that, stick with that and you will have our support in reforming NHS commissioning but this Bill goes far, far wider than commissioning, it basically turns our wonderful NHS into a free market and we will not have that.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Are you shifting ground?  As I say, three days in the job, no doubt you’ve kept an interest in it having been Health Secretary yourself, are you shifting ground here by saying that and saying that you are able to agree with allowing clinicians, GPs, to get more involved in commissioning?

ANDY BURNHAM:

It’s a new start.  I’m coming in and I see the situation we’ve got right now and I’m worried about the position the NHS is in.  It’s just now that the NHS needs clarity and certainty and stability so that it can face the financial challenge and instead, the Health Secretary has given everybody uncertainty and the NHS is demoralised and destabilised so what should I do?  I take this moment now to say to him, drop the Bill because the Bill is not wanted by anybody in the National Health Service.  However we will work with you with that aim of putting clinicians in charge of commissioning in the health service.  We did reforms when we were in government to put doctors and nurses more in the lead and we are prepared to go further and help the Health Secretary on that but we are not prepared to accept this Bill and I think the House of Lords, as we are seeing, has major reservations about it.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

So it is a shift in position.  Reforms that you previously opposed you are now prepared to accept as long as they are not in the Bill?

ANDY BURNHAM:

No, I’m not saying that, I’m saying that all along we have had no objection to the principle of putting clinicians in charge when it comes to commissioning decisions.  We did some of that when we were in government with practice based commissioning but it could go further  and I’m prepared to work with the Health Secretary to take it further and deliver that aim but this Bill goes well, well beyond that aim.  It essentially breaks up our National Health Service, it unpicks the fabric of the NHS, it takes the N out of the NHS and turns it into a free for all, a huge postcode lottery, and we are not prepared to accept that.  This Bill really strikes at the heart of the National Health Service and that is why it is unacceptable to me and thousands of other people who care about our National Health Service and it really is time for the Health Secretary to listen and change course.  The more he digs in, the more he locks us into this dangerous stalemate, the more damaging it will be to patient care and quite frankly he now needs to stop digging and work constructively with us.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Is this Labour high command’s decision to try to make more of an impact on an area which is seen as very positive for you, the NHS and the analysis being that your predecessor in the role, John Healey, didn’t make that impact?

ANDY BURNHAM:

No, not at all, because John forced a pause in these reforms and that pause has given people breathing space but it is quite clear coming through it that there is no consensus behind Mr Lansley and his reforms.  I’m not opposed to reform in the National Health Service, as I’ve said to you, Dermot, this morning, I’m prepared to look at how we might strengthen commissioning to put doctors and nurses in the lead but I do not accept that this Bill will be in the long term interests of the NHS and my worry is that the Health Secretary is essentially locking the NHS into a very dangerous position and if he doesn’t give ground he will damage patient care.  Now, that is not acceptable.  I think people in the NHS are looking to people like me to show leadership and say look, let’s have the parties working together to take things forward.  I am absolutely clear that Mr Lansley’s reforms do not need legislation, if his main aim is to improve commissioning then that does need time consuming and distracting legislation.  We can get on with that job whilst dropping the rest of the proposals in this Bill. 

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Okay, but as you know those noises aren’t coming out of government and the Bill continues in the form it’s in, of course until the House of Lords have a look at it.  If they remain wedded to the Bill, you oppose it, we also know that the unions oppose it, there’s a demonstration taking place in central London today amongst other things opposing that, Unison is balloting tomorrow – do you support those unions in their opposition?

ANDY BURNHAM:

I do support those unions because I think they are speaking for the public and for the country.  Nothing is more important to people than the National Health Service and I think he debate about this Bill over the last year has shown clearly that it quite frankly doesn’t have the support of people throughout the country so yes, I’m absolutely clear, the government should drop this Bill before it causes more damage and we will be supporting an amendment in the Lords this week to drop the Bill altogether and that is the right course of action now.  Give the NHS stability, allow people in the NHS to focus on the main job and the main job is rising to the financial challenge. Mr Lansley’s big mistake was to combine this top-down reorganisation with the financial challenge in the NHS.  He gave it an impossible job and because of that he has demoralised and destabilised the system and it is time now that he really did listen and change course.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

I just wanted to ask you how far your support for the union go though, because Unison are not balloting for nothing, it may well lead to industrial action, health workers, nurses, others who work in the health service going out on strike, would you support that?

ANDY BURNHAM:

I’m not talking about that, the unions have made their concerns known about the Bill and I support that.  I wouldn’t support a strike right now but I do support people making plain their opposition to this Bill because I know people care about the National Health Service, they believe in what it stands for and they know that this Bill tears all of that down, it undermines the values of the National Health Service and the provisions in the Bill around competition are basically unacceptable to the vast majority of people.  Now the government said it would pause, it said it would take stock, it said it would listen – quite frankly I don’t believe that they’ve done that.  They are ploughing on regardless with a deeply unpopular Bill and it really is time for them now, if they care about the National Health Service, if all of the Prime Minister’s warm words about the NHS are to mean anything at all, he really now needs to listen to those doctors and nurses and step back from these reforms.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

You mentioned the Prime Minister there and one other issue on your beat, the Prime Minister touched on it last week, this issue of a fat tax.  We all know about it in terms of threats to the NHS and the huge cost it involves, obesity is one of the big ones there, the Prime Minister said he is looking at a fat tax, something that operates in Denmark where you charge more for foods that contain above 2.3% saturated fat.  Is that something you could co-operate with the Prime Minister as well on?

ANDY BURNHAM:

No, I’m surprised that the Prime Minister has raised this issue, now of all times when people are really struggling with the cost of their weekly shop.  To say that they are going to put further taxes on foods perhaps that some people can only afford, some of the less expensive foods.  I don't think that’s fair, the government should be regulating to ensure high nutritional standards in our food, it should have a traffic light labelling scheme.  Sadly they dropped that when they came into government, I had developed plans for that, and also I think they should be giving people positive incentives to get people healthy.  We developed a free swimming scheme that the government dropped as well, so I think he is coming at this completely the wrong way at a time when people need help rather than being clobbered with extra taxes. I am all in favour of improving people’s health and improving people’s diet but I believe this is the wrong way to go about it.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Just lastly on that, a lot of people who are struggling smoke, yet the direction of travel there is to continually raise taxes because it’s bad for them.

ANDY BURNHAM:

Well smoking kills and that’s quite clear and of course smoking harms other people as well so there is a different argument to be made about the effects of smoking.  Of course we want to encourage people to eat more healthily and we had a programme called Change For Life which was very much focused on that.  My worry has been that this government has got far too close to the fast food companies and it has given them a huge opportunity to influence and shape government policy and I believe that to be a mistake and now we have this other message coming out of the government.  They should stop quite honestly, they have lost the plot on this whole issue, they need to focus on improving nutritional standards in schools, getting children active, stop their damaging cuts to school sports and promote programmes like free swimming.  That’s the way to get the country more active and more healthy.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Okay Mr Burnham, we must end it there, thank you very much for sparing the time to talk to us today.

ANDY BURNHAM:

You’re welcome.

DERMOT MURNAGHAN:

Andy Burnham, Shadow Health Secretary there in Liverpool.